Talk:Riven/@comment-33536623-20140127122040/@comment-10958525-20140131010609
I won't address your silly provocation which really doesn't fit your elaborate posts. "Because the hp regen passive is situational. During a trade, Riven's passive is active and Garen's passive is down. At level 1, Riven's combo does ~120 dmg more than Garen's spin. Garen (w/ Doran's shield) will regen 11.5 hp/5 faster than Riven's base regen (however this is not including the hp regen from Riven's doran's blade if she starts doran's). This means Garen needs more than 50 seconds to recoup the difference in damage traded. If Garen is left alone for 9 seconds then he'll start to recoup an extra 26 hp/sec. Whether or not Garen is left alone to activate his passive is also situational." First of all, level one all in are pointless to address. Minion aggro is way too damaging at that point and neither side usually tries such a risky move. Garen gets aggressive by level 4, while Riven does so one or 2 level earlier. You're also diminishing the regen importance by saying Garen being left alone is situational while it really is not, a good Garen can get that regen up safely and the only way for Riven to stop this is getting in his minions dangerous zone. "I already addressed this 2 days ago: "Garen's ult is single target execute albeit magic damage and Riven's ult is a long-range, wide, AoE execute that scales on bonus AD." - Myself I don't know about you but typically I'm more afraid of a Riven with her ult active than I am of a Garen. Besides being an AoE execute, Riven's ult also acts as a range and AD steroid for 15 seconds with a CD as low as 30 seconds at max rank. Garen's is simply an execute that has no scalings except for the target's missing health." However, Garen's ult can't be dodged/baited with a well timed flash, Yasuo's wall, or some sort of dashing ability. I do obviously agree Riven's ult is stronger in teamfights though. "Well that's good a thing since just about every Riven build incorporates a LW or BC (or both) or ghostblade... ''' '''If Garen just runs "high armor/hp items" he's not going to be doing considerable damage. The base scalings on his spin2win is 120 dmg/sec at max rank. The base armor for most champions seems to be around 75 by lvl 18. This means that a Garen who runs "high armor/hp items" will do approximately 70 dmg/sec for a whopping 210'ish damage after armor and the full 3 seconds of spinning. You reeeally shouldn't be trying to compare the damage potential between a tanky Garen to an AD fighter like Riven." Why are you comparing Garen's E damage at level 18 with Riven's Q damage at level 1 anyway? Tyr and calculate how much damage Riven deals at level 4 or 5, considering AD Quintessences and Marks, Def Seals, with a doran's blade and a pickaxe (or a vampiric scepter, whatever) against a level 4 or 5 Garen with AD Quintessences and Marks, and Def seals, with a doran's shield and a chain vest, with his W active. Oh look, we're examining complex scenarios simply using numbers (and we're not even factoring minions damage and masteries, nor lane freezing and gank safety, and don't let me get started on crits!). Don't you think it's something which can't be analyzed simply by calculations? Also, since you've posted a lot about engagment mechanics think for a moment, Garen engages with Q, Riven is silenced for 1.5 seconds, meanwhile Garen starts spinning right after, and Riven autoattacks once, or maybe twice. After 1.5 seconds Riven can use her Q to properly trade, but Garen's only has to spin for 1.5 more seconds (actually, considering the last 0.5 seconds of his E deal no damage he only needs one more second for the full damage) and then he's likely running away. Do you really think Riven can Q -> AA -> Q -> AA -> Q -> AA in 1 second? Garen will also wait for this timeframe to activate his W (which lasts 2 seconds at rank 1) and reduce the incoming damage. Even if Riven somewhat managed to land all of her Q + AA (not that easy without a phage on a fleeing target but she does have her W and Q knock up after all) Garen will, as stated above, just regen in his safe zone and be ready to trade back again in a relatively small time frame. "Well then we should define what we're countering here (i.e. when does early game stop, countering farm/roaming/etc?). It might help if you post actual numbers because I've already done the math for Garen from level 1 to 5. If you want to factor in first buys (i.e. armor vs ad items) then please do so." No, this isn't about interpretating something. To counter a pick/ counter a champion is always referred to laning phase or mid game laning because during lategame/teamfights there is too many variables and sinergies going on such as peeling and CC focusing (actually the jungler variable itself usally invalidates lane countering too). "Anecdotal evidence........................................................................ Ugh. It's like on one reads. We don't know if you're good with Riven, if your opponents were good with Garen, etc etc"' Oh how ironic. '''This '( http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=top-matchup&range=daily&map=sr&queue=normal ) is scientific evidence, backed up by numbers and large scale statistics over all levels of play. Now feel free to provide your calculations and assume everything always goes exactly as your maths (funnily enough, this could be considered anecdotal evidence) while in reality it '''doesn't. Also, feel free to keep implying we're all poor ignorants, your numbers OBVIOUSLY '''provide greater evidence than a real experience of over 2 years with this champion. Oh and I guess someone should go and tell those players (nearly 100.000 games monthly) that you're right and their percentages are just anecdotal evidence! I'm sure your '''ONE MAN calculations are way more accurate than their''' 95000 games'! Or maybe you know, just '''MAYBE '''you might be...wrong? And in case you didn't notice,' THIS is taking a shot at you, since trying to be polite only resulted in you victimizing yourself while poking at me. EDIT: On an offtopic note I JUST NOTICED''', not only were you the only one to get a warning in the deleted thread but you also went up to the moderator and asked him to warn me and CliffShadow as well! This definitley marked my deadline in trying to have a discussion of any sort with you. Have a good day.